On Point With: John Waters

Speaking to the high holy “Pope of Trash” himself on the eve of his 80th birthday was one for our bucket list!

Baltimore son John Waters has shaped the counter culture — and by default, culture at large — first with early guerilla film hits like “Female Trouble” and “Pink Flamingos” (and our favorite, “Desperate Living”) and their still-hilariously shocking on-screen moments ranging from a singing asshole to a notorious eating of dogshit. His films feature non-traditional stars from his hometown like drag icon Divine and snaggle-toothed bar owner turned punk rocker Edith Massey, as well as Hollywood A-Listers like Johnny Depp and Kathleen Turner. ALso of noye: his grounds breaking guest appearance on “The Simpsons,” the many globally popular iterations of “Hairspray,” several hit books and stage shows… and so much more. This summer, John returns to a place that’s a perfect fit for his “Dreamland” brand: Fire Island!

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Thotyssey: It’s so great to talk to you today, of course, and let me be the latest of many interviewers to wish you a happy birthday!

John Waters: Thank you! I’ve been celebrating my birthday, it seems, for months.

It’s your 80th! That’s when the magic starts to happen, right?

Well, that’s one that you never imagine when you’re young. But when you’re old, you think, “Well, that’s not that old.” My parents went on to be 90, so I hope this leads to 100.

Are you, generally speaking, a pro-birthday person?

Well, I don’t hide it. But after your 20th, I think you should give your own self a party so it’s no one else’s responsibility… and I have. When I was 30 years old, I had it in a punk rock club and a stripper jumped out of a cake and broke her leg. My 40th, I had it at an old age home. My 50th, I had it [at a new restaurant] in New York before it opened. 60th, another fancy restaurant. 70, I took five friends first class to Paris. And 80th, I’m going to Europe. But a friend had a great private birthday party for me in Prune Restaurant the other night. So every 10 years, I celebrate it. The other years, no.

That’s the way to do it. Ten years is a good marker, I think! You were just doing one of your live shows here in town a few nights ago, at The New York Society for Ethical Culture.

Yes, and tomorrow, Miami. The next day outside of Washington.

So much traveling! Do you hate that?

Well, obviously not! I did 59 shows last year. I love it. If the plane works and I’m on it, I’m always in first class. So I don’t hate that. I like it. Nobody can reach me.

We are in a less than desirable situation nowadays, though, with flights and airports: crowds, understaffing, cancelled flights, etc.

I’m in an airplane almost every day, and none got canceled. The few days we saw the crazy pictures, that wasn’t me. And other days, I got there and I lucked out on it. I have not been held up yet.

You of course are a famous Baltimorean, but you have an home here in New York. What do you like to do when you’re here in town and you have free time?

I do the exact same thing I do in all four places I live. I have friends that I’ve had for 50 years. I go out to dinner. I go to movies. In New York, I go to art galleries. And I try to stay home because I travel so much for work, so I do the same thing. All my apartments and homes look alike inside. They all look the same. I have contemporary art, thousands of books, oriental rugs, and the kind of furniture young people hate: antiques. And so everybody says, “yeah, this looks like your other place.” Yeah, they all look the same. So they all really feel like home.

That sounds like Heaven!

I’ve always said, “Happiness is four pairs of underpants!”

So you don’t go out to the gay bars… do you think that scene is tacky these days, or maybe always?

I never went to gay bars. The gay men I liked were in straight bars — the three crazy ones. They’re the ones I liked.

Fewer young people seem to be frequenting them these days.

The thing is, maybe it’s progress because young people just don’t want to be gay, straight, or anything. There’s a new sexual revolution. They’re here, they’re not queer, and nobody’s used to it.

There’s also this whole “controversy” now that the straight girls are going to the gay bars, and they’re bringing their straight boyfriends, and nobody wants to deal with the straight boyfriends.

Oh, they want to deal with straight boyfriends. They don’t want to deal with drunken bridesmaids. Why do they go to a gay bar, the last place people really want a drunken woman? They can just go to the Cubbyhole — there could never be a better bar name than that!

I tell all the straight kids that come to my show that said they’re bisexual, “Well, you say that. But if you are straight, it’s really hard to swallow a load.” I tell them, “You can practice at the oyster bar.”

That is very sage advice! I was just going down a YouTube rabbit hole of sorts, and I came across this recent UK podcast interview with the great Mink Stole, a favorite actress and collaborator of yours. She was promoting a show she was about to do with Peaches Christ there.

Yeah, they just did a big thing at the British Film Institute.

Yes. And in the interview Mink was reflecting on some of the early movies she made with you. She was talking about a moment where you had this great idea to set her hair on fire, which she ultimate declined.

Yes, that’s Pink Flamingos. When I asked Mink to do that, I was on marijuana — I wasn’t thinking that it was dangerous or anything. She said, “Well, how are you going to put it out?” And I said, “We’ll throw a bucket of water on you.” And I said it completely thinking that would be a good thing. She was right to say no.

Years later on Cecil B. Demented, you wisely used special effects for a “hair on fire” moment with that film’s star, Melanie Griffith!

It’s one of the worst special effects in the movie.

I loved it! But it made me think of the two halves of your career. The first half is when you were doing everything kind of “for real”: very gonzo and guerilla style, low-budget, shocking grit. And then eventually when you started making studio films with actual budgets, you had the luxury for special effects and professional stunts and more coverage and better editing. When you look back at those two halves of your career, do you prefer one over the other?

I think they’re all the same. Serial Mom is my best movie. I think Female Trouble is the best Divine movie. I have a soft spot for Pecker and Cecil B. Demented because they didn’t do as well when they came out. To me, all my movies are the same.

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I just saw you on The View!

Yeah, that was a shock. That’s one of the most shocking things I’ve ever done!

You were in great company at the desk with Aubrey Plaza and Amy Sedaris. Three peas in a pod of chaos!

Right. And Whoopi, who I’ve known for a long time. Divine died like a week after Hairspray came out, which was getting great reviews. And it was a terrible thing, but Whoopi sent flowers to the funeral. And the card said, “See what a good review will do.” And Divine would have thought that was really funny.

No doubt! You, Aubrey and Amy were promoting a new animated show on Prime you’re all part of, Kevin. How do you like being a cartoon voice?

I was a puppeteer when I was young. So it comes naturally to me. I was on The Simpsons–that’s the first thing I did. I do voiceover work all the time… I just want to be in Toy Story.

Of course, The Simpsons! That was a famously great episode, and the gay campy character you voiced was grounds breaking for TV!

I didn’t realize it at the time. I love doing that work. And doing the show with Aubrey was great fun. It was something completely different, something new.

Are you online a lot? Do you do social media?

I don’t have any official websites. There’s not one [social media platform] that I have anything to do with. I spy on them, I look at them. But I want to be harder to reach. I’m not giving away my jokes every day. What would I have in my books or my shows?

I was wondering, if you had come up now as a kid… do you think instead of making movies, you would just be doing “weird content ” on algorithms?

No, I think I would have still made movies. What has become a hit in the movie world from social media? Nothing.

Times are weird now, though, with the movie business. Are you ever worried that–

Kids don’t even like movies? They say they’re too long. And they’re right. Movies are too long now.

What about the whole “loss of the movie theater experience” threat?

I mean, I watch movies on everything. I can watch a movie on my phone and enjoy it. I just want people to see my movies, I don’t care how they watch them. Nothing goes backwards. You can’t hope for change to go backwards. It doesn’t work. I believe in the future. I’m an optimist. I’m more than a half-full glass kind of guy. My glass runs over at all times.

So you’re not worried about the rise of AI either?

It’s going to cure AIDS. We always talk about what’s happening in the artistic sector, but it can cure AIDS. Yeah, I’m not against it.

That’s a very valid way of thinking about it. Would you ever consider doing your own streaming show, like a John Waters “Dreamland” cinematic universe six-parter?

No. Somebody else has to produce that. I’ve had offers to do that kind of thing… but no. I just want to write my own movies, or write a book or tell stories. That’s all. I do spoken word shows. I write books. My first poem just came out in The Atlantic this week, so you never know. You can always have new careers.

You were set to shoot your first movie in years with Aubrey, an adaptation of your novel Liarmouth, right?

That fell through. We were going to, but with that budget… it’s an expensive movie to make. If you read the book, how could that be a cheap movie?

Maybe someday! I guess I shouldn’t be counting the seconds until my dream John Waters Future Project, a Cry-Baby sequel focused on Hatchet Face, is finally made!

I’ve never done a sequel. I wrote one called Flamingos Forever, the sequel to Pink Flamingos that never got made. It is published in a screenplay book. I don’t think I’ll do any sequels, really, because I like new ideas. For me, the most fun of the movie is thinking it up. Making a movie is the tedium of making something real; thinking it up, you don’t have to worry about that. You’re meeting and becoming those characters for the first time. To me, that’s the most fun of it.

What’s your history with going to Fire Island?

My experience there before is, I would go out there with Divine sometimes, and I would visit. But I live in Provincetown. You can’t go to both places; you have to pick one. Everybody lived there in the summer went to Key West in the winter, but never did Fire Island.

You’re gonna be on the Island on this summer!

I need to go back there–that dressing room there. That’s where I saw an old, big, drag queen shoe left on the floor, which did make me laugh. Carol Channing had just been there.

Liza Minnelli was at the Palace not too long ago as well. Legends! And it was where Chita Rivera had one of her last shows.

Well, it’s not going to be my last show! I always feel like Emmanuelle on Fire Island. It seems like a sex tourism place.

You’re going to be frollicking there July 25th! John Waters is Going to Extremes is the name of your show. What’s this particular show like? What are you talking about in it?

I mostly rewrite my show once a year completely. And this is about how we live in extreme times. We have to go more extreme with humor. Humor is how we win. Humor is a weapon. Humor is terrorism. Humor is how we get people to change their minds. So it’s about that.

I kind of look at everything that’s happening now with Trump and his motley crew of thugs and conmen, and all these crazy things that are happening… and obviously it’s scary and terrible. But also, I kind of look at it and I think, “Life is like a John Waters movie now.”

There’s a picture of me at No Kings that you can see widely online; my sign read, “Trump ruined bad taste.” And that’s not fun anymore.

That’s true. But when you see Melania speak or do anything… she seems like she could be a character in one of your movies.

The thing is about Melania, I mean… did you see her Christmas decorations? It was beyond. That’s not camp, that’s not funny. They’re all hair hoppers. A hair hopper is someone who spends too much time on their hair and brags they’re rich.

Erica Kirk has great hair though, but that’s another story altogether.

Who? [Charlie Kirk’s] widow? I believe you should be allowed to say anything… and then she came out and forgave the killer? I’m sorry, I respect her for that. I taught in prison for a long time. I’ve helped people get out of jail that did terrible things. So that is a very brave thing for her to say. It’s something you cannot ask for. They have to offer it.

That reminds me of your advocacy for the women in Charlie Manson’s cult that were involved in the 1969 murders of Sharon Tate and others. You became the confidant in particular of Leslie Van Houten during her incarceration and wrote about how you believed that she was truly remorseful and reformed, and finally in 2023 she was released.

I don’t talk about that anymore because she got out, and there’s no such person anymore. She’s never going to talk about it. It’s over. And I understand. I wrote a lot about her, and I helped get her out. But nowadays, she made the right decision. You will never hear from her again.

You will talk about tons of other stuff at The Ice Palace in July! What else is coming up for you?

I got 59 shows this year. I did eight birthday shows. I’m hosting Mosswood Meltdown, the big punk rock festival that Iggy Pop’s headlining; I’ve done it for maybe 12 years now. I’m in American Horror Story. I’ve had more jobs than I’ve ever had in my entire life; so that’s good. I’m afraid that if I quit, I’ll drop dead on stage. And if I do, I always say, “You can take selfies. And if you dig me up from my grave for sex, oral only.”

That’s very generous! Such a pleasure talking to you, and Happy Birthday once again!

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Check Thotyssey’s calendar for John Waters’ upcoming appearances. Mr. Waters does not have an official online presence, but the Dreamland News fansite and Instagram / Facebook pages offer updated info on his activities.

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