A singer / songwriter who emerged at a time when women were ruling the charts with a unique sound all her own, Sophie. B. Hawkins gifted us with massive hits like “Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover” and “As I Lay Me Down.” She’s also waged war with labels–both the music industry type, and in the literal sense–and won. Now, this fierce artist and single mom is bringing the music back to her hometown of NYC… and we’re all invited to the show!
Thotyssey: Thanks for talking to us today, Sophie! I understand you’re in Connecticut with family now, right?
Sophie B. Hawkins: Well, yes. It’s where I live the weekdays–and then, we take the train into the city on the weekend. Luckily, my son’s at the age where he just goes off on his own, and me and my daughter are just prancing around. It’s really a good life.
You are a native New Yorker, right? So you probably know all about prancing around the city.
Yes. I’m a born and bred New Yorker; there’s a lot of history there. But basically I’ve always lived somewhere near Central Park. Then when I was a young adult and I signed my record contract, I moved to Christopher Street. I didn’t leave New York until I was–well, the first time I ever actually left New York to go somewhere foreign was my Sony tour, when I was on Columbia for the first record.
When you were exploring New York in those earlier years, what were you doing? Were you going to record stores, going to bars and clubs?
[As a kid] I was always in Central Park. And then, a teenager, always in the Village, Rocks in Your Head, all the movie theaters. But I was a teenager a while ago!
What’s different about New York to me now–but it’s been different for a really long time, because I noticed it in the ’90s–is how big the buildings have gotten, and how much more people care about money.
It was hard being a single mother of two children in New York–I mean, a single mother anywhere. You have to really be on top of your organization and mobility and all that jazz, especially with my career where I have to tour. And in New York, there’s lines everywhere. There’s lines for the cookies. There’s lines for the bagels. There’s lines to get your kid in a karate program. There’s lines, lines, lines. It gets ridiculous.
And so expensive, too. Like you said, the “money” part of the city is expanding and the rich are taking over. Hmm, maybe I should move to Connecticut too!
So last year, your iconic debut album Tongues and Tails turned 30! That, of course, is well known for the massive hit “Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover,” which was my jam… and still is. And this year, you’re touring in part to celebrate the 30th anniversary of your second ever album Whaler, which had its own huge hit “As I Lay Me Down.” Do you remember the creation and the success of those first two albums vividly like it was yesterday, or does it all seem like a thousand years ago?
It seems like yesterday; it feels very close. And the thing that I love about this particular tour–I’m doing it with one of my favorite musicians, Seth Glier, and we’re breaking down the Whaler songs; we’re playing them from this very pure place. I said to Seth, “here’s the directive: we’re going to go to a campfire, and we’re going to play a group of people all the Whaler songs. But we only have us, and two instruments. What are we going to do? How are we going to play them?” And we loved that idea, because we’re both very musical. And we both love to bring out the truth of a song, the best of a song. The melodic quality of Whaler, the harmonic quality, and the lyrical quality is so warm and so happy. It’s so sincere, and so fun to play.
“As I Lay Me Down” fits your description of the rest of those Whaler songs: very sweet and melodic. But also, lyrically, a bit sad?
Yeah. I’ve been told many times: I can never be too happy. There’s always sadness in there. And that’s what’s beautiful, and that’s what gets people. It’s a very spiritual song, and the bridge is off the charts. It’s really harmonically developed, and it sounds simple. But the whole song put together is really like a spiritual journey. I can’t believe that song; I love it. I never can get over it, and I can’t believe I wrote it, but I did.
That’s wonderful! Some artists do seem to get fatigued with performing their big hit songs over the years.
Because people write from different places. I’m not going to get sick of any of my songs; I write from a place of real needing to heal and working things out, and then transcending the place where I am, and getting to a new place. My songs are like a partnership with God. And people who are jaded enough to say they’re sick of their hits: God bless them, they’re probably amazing people and amazing writers, but sometimes they don’t even write their songs themselves.
You came out as omnisexual during that time, back when very few people were coming out as any type of queer. Was that a scary thing to do?
Yeah. I mean, it took a lot of guts, and it took a lot of thinking and preparation mentally on my part because I didn’t want to lie… and I didn’t want to be co-opted by any group. I wanted to be myself. I wanted to create a definition that I could grow into, and I knew that there was more to life than being gay or straight. So I’m really glad I did it. There’s an Omnisexual Day; in London, they actually gave me credit for it. They actually said, “Sophie B. Hawkins created this concept, or brought it to our attention.” I invented the word. Obviously, I didn’t invent “omni-,” I didn’t invent the word” sexual,” but I put them together for the first time.
You should get your own letter in the LGBTQ alphabet. We need an O in there.
I always thought I would never live to see the day where any of the things that I was an activist about would actually take root, and I am living to see the day. My son’s friends came over and they said that they were omnisexual, and they had no idea that I had anything to do with the concept.
It was a very brave declaration, at a time when the public weren’t hearing or saying many queer entertainers.
But it was also brave because the gay community didn’t like that I didn’t say I was gay. I honestly couldn’t say I was gay, because I honestly am omnisexual. So I was really glad that I stuck to my guns–because now, at this age, it’s like I’m being recognized.
Around the time that those first two albums came out, there was a big moment for women in music in the ’90–female singer / songwriters. Sarah McLachlan’s female driven Lilith Fair festival was a famous showcase for all the talent of the era. Were you aware of the excitement and uniqueness of that moment while you were living it?
Yeah. I was conscious of helping create it. Before ’92 when [Tongues & Tails] came out, I was in Manhattan doing things with great female artists, downtown at PS122, Holly Hughes, Reno, all of them, doing amazing stuff in the East Village. I was really in there with the great artists, and loving every moment.
Did I recognize it was a woman’s movement? I was so conscious. I would not let anybody write on my songs. I picked my band. I was really a kick-ass artist. For a woman at that time, I went into that studio… I booked the bass player, I booked the drumme, I booked the keyboard player. I did everything as I thought should be done. And the album is so original; I really have to give myself credit.
I know you also had to hold your ground in some battles with your record label.
In ’98, I went up against Sony Music on behalf of all singer-songwriters because they wanted to have me write with a tribe of people. And I said, “But I’ve written literally every hit song of which I’ve had six major hits! I’ve written every hit song alone. Why are you making me write with people?” And they said, “Because that’s what people do now.” And I said, “But I’m not going to do it, and I’m going to fight for all artists to not have to do this.”
It’s a strange development, in a way. Labels always seem to be trying to pinch pennies, but nowadays they want an army of writers on these pop songs.
Because they’re not thoughtful. And that’s the thing: artists are supposed to be thoughtful, and we’re supposed to take it on the chin and keep going and keep believing in our ideals. And that’s what I love about Brandi Carlile–she’s trying to make everyone aware. We all are doing it, but she’s doing it in a very visible way because she’s very powerful. And she’s very smart about how she does it. As I said in the documentary, The Cream Will Rise: they should follow us at record company, but they don’t follow us. They call us a baby and they manipulate us.
But the point is that in the ’70s, there was this great time when artists ruled. Artists’ vision ruled. Unfortunately, it always has the other side to it. And the ’90s had the other side to it, too. It shifted to an incredible horribleness after the ’90s for a while of all females again being manipulated, writing with all the people. And now it’s come back again, that artists are sort of in charge again. But it’s a constant ebb and flow. It’s up to the artist to keep the eye on the ball, and to not give into this crap.
Totally. There was also a much covered story about you about holding back your third record because the label didn’t want you to include banjoes on a track!
The thing is, the banjo is an American instrument. It was invented in this country. It’s the only instrument [invented] in America… by slaves. It was the straw that broke the back. First they had wanted me to write with people. And then I said, “I’m going to produce, I refuse to write with people, and I’m going to produce the album.” And it ended up being a huge hit… but they wanted the banjo off the song “Lose My Way.” And I actually said, “make a version without the banjo, and if it was better, I’ll work with you..” But it wasn’t better.
And what it was really about, the argument was really about the fact that I wouldn’t write with this tribe of people I’d never heard of and sort of butcher my work. That’s what it was really about. And so I sued Sony, and they settled. They gave me the masters to that album. That was ’98, before all of this other stuff that people talk about. I was really one of the first people to do that, I think.
And you released the many albums that came after that independently… no more labels.
Yes, I’m still independent, and it’s starting to work out again. I had a great run on my own label. I’m feeling like I really am in a good place.
That’s great! The music business seems so complex now. With downloading and streaming, it seems really hard to make a profit per unit, for one thing.
It is awful. I agree. I don’t think it’s turning out well for artists and songwriters. And I don’t know why we haven’t done more to stop this, because it seems illegal. We can be paid so little, and sometimes nothing at all… and yet our work is constantly being used. And I don’t think that we’re the only ones. It seems like [all creative fields are] having a hard time because the internet makes things so cheap. I don’t know that it’s good for society. But this is a really big question: what’s going to happen? We’re just getting sort of fed up with the feeling that we’re not in control.
I read that you are working on a type of scripted stage production that you’re calling a “playsical” (play / musical).
Yeah, I wrote it; I’ve been writing it for nine years. It’s very real, and it’s very solid, and I’m very excited. I’m having a reading on June 25th.
Very exciting, we’ll keep our eyes and ears open for that! And I was just listening to your latest album, Free Myself. I enjoy the title track and “Fairy Tales,” and I really like “Angel in Disguise” because lyrically it has a sentiment that you don’t hear a lot in pop songs. You always hear about the “Devil in Disguise,” the femme fatale, but sometimes the opposite happens in a relationship. The person you think is gonna be just another problem is actually the one who saves you!
Yeah, Exactly. You couldn’t have said it better.
New Yorkers will get a chance to hear these newer songs, plus tracks from Whaler on its 30th anniversary and hits throughout your career, on your May 28th tour stop at City Winery.
Yes. I’m very excited! Whaler has never sounded so good; I can say that with utter confidence. And I can also say that it’s a very uplifting and healing show. It’s a great time for me, and I want to share it. And I’m not just bullshitting–it’s really wonderful that I get to do this, especially because of all this crap out there.
Good music brings us all together, even in these divisive times.
I feel like when people come to the show, they get so happy and connected, and we are all connected. We are all connected, and we don’t have to spew hate.
It’s definitely what the world needs now. Thank you Sophie, see you at City Winery!
Check Thotyssey’s calendar for Sophie B. Hawkins upcoming area appearances, and follow her on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube. Visit her website, and stream / download her music on multiple platforms.
Thotyssey 